梅克爾接受聯合專訪 Taimocracy 部分翻譯

【縛雞之見】

Angela Merkel, who is going to assume as the rotating presidency of the EU council passes to Germany on 1 July, received an interview by 6 European news agencies, including those from UK, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, and Poland might signify something.

As a rotating presidency of the EU, with no executive powers other than the task of representing the Union externally, Merkel is expected to perform Europe more than considering Germany.  Since Merkel is German, then she has to arbitrate the two perspectives: the European and the German.  She found a slogan: “what’s good for Europe is good for us,” not the reverse.

“In October 2018, Merkel announced that she would stand down as Leader of the CDU at the party convention in December 2018, and would not seek a fifth term as Chancellor in 2021.”  Merkel has roughly one year term in office both as the Chancellor and the President.

'For Europe to survive, its economy needs to survive': Angela Merkel interview in full    The Guardian 20200626  Taimocracy部分翻譯

As the rotating presidency of the EU council passes to Germany on 1 July, the country’s chancellor, Angela Merkel, sat down for an interview with the Guardian and five other European newspapers – Germany’s Süddeutsche Zeitung, France’s Le Monde, Spain’s La Vanguardia, Italy’s La Stampa and Poland’s Polityka – to talk about Europe’s economic response to the coronavirus pandemic, her stance on the Brexit negotiations, and global challenges posed by the US, Russia and China.

 

Germany’s European council presidency is taking place during an unprecedented crisis.  There is a lot of pressure; Germany is expected to sort things out.  How nervous are you?

My first council presidency as chancellor was in 2007.  The European constitutional treaty had just been rejected in France and the Netherlands, and we had set ourselves the task of shaping a new treaty.  We succeeded in that.  Then came the international financial crisis, turbulence for the euro and the refugee issue – so difficult times are nothing new.  And time and again it has been shown that Europe is not yet sufficiently resistant to crises.  In the euro crisis, we lacked the tools for an appropriate response.  The movements of refugees in 2015 showed up the deficiencies of the EU asylum system.

 

Now the coronavirus pandemic is confronting us with a challenge of unprecedented dimensions.  It has struck us all indiscriminately.  On the one hand, it has torn us away from a period of positive economic development in all EU member states.  On the other hand, it has coincided with the two great disruptive phenomena of our time, climate change and the digital revolution, which are changing our lives and our economies regardless of the virus.  I am very sharply focused on all of this.

 

Given the sheer number of crises, is the EU’s survival on the line?

Rather than ask the existential question too often, we should get on with the day job.  It is very much in all the member states’ own interests to maintain a strong European internal market and to stand united on the world stage.  In such an extraordinary situation, I rely on the member states having a great interest in the things that unite us.

 

The crisis has not just struck Europe; the whole world is fighting the pandemic as well as political demons.

Exactly, and it is true that the tone of international discourse is brusque at the moment.  After the 2008 financial crisis, multilateralism was the order of the day.  That was when the G20 started meeting at the level of heads of state or government, and the countries gave a very unified response.  That is not the case today.  These days, we have to do all we can to stop ourselves collapsing into protectionism.  If Europe wants to be heard, then it needs to set a good example.  I am counting on it – though I am under no illusions about how difficult the negotiations will be.

確實，目前國際的基調確實是殘酷的。在2008年金融危機後，多邊主義成為時代主流。那時，二十國集團（G20）舉行元首或政府首腦會議，而各國達成非常統一的回應。今天不是這樣。如今，我們必須盡一切努力阻止自己陷入保護主義。如果歐洲要發揮影響力，那麼就需要樹立好榜樣。對此，我有寄望—即便我對談判不抱任何幻想。

 

Your proposal for a recovery fund was a major concession to the southern countries.  What reform efforts are you expecting in return?

I don’t find it helpful to talk about the northern countries, the southern countries and the eastern Europeans.  That is seeing things in black and white.  I expect each of us always to put ourselves in the other person’s shoes and consider problems from the other’s point of view.

 

The group known as the ‘frugal four’ is pursuing a defensive approach.  Why has Germany left the cautious camp?

For Italy and Spain, for example, the coronavirus pandemic signifies a huge burden in economic, medical and, of course, because of the many lives lost, emotional terms.  In these circumstances, it is only right for Germany to think not just about itself but to be prepared to engage in an extraordinary act of solidarity.  It was in that spirit that French President Emmanuel Macron and I made our proposal.

 

Going into higher levels of debt is a U-turn for Germany.  What happened to the chancellor with the tight purse strings? 對德國而言，增加債務規模是一個大轉變。緊俏的財政給總理帶來了什麼？

In a crisis of this magnitude, each and every one of us is expected to do what needs to be done.  What needs to be done in this case is something extraordinary.  Germany had a low debt ratio and can afford, in this extraordinary situation, to take on some more debt.  It is also very important to us to keep the programme within the bounds of the European treaties.  We have found a way to do that.

And all this is in our own interests too, of course.  It is in Germany’s interest to have a strong internal market and to have the European Union grow closer together, not fall apart.  As ever, what’s good for Europe is good for us.

在如此嚴重規模的危機中，我們每個人都有需要做的事情。在這種情況下，需要做的是非比尋常的。德國的債務比率很低，在此特殊情況下，德國有能力承擔更多債務。對我們來說，使該計劃保持在歐洲條約範圍之內也非常重要。我們已經找到了方法。

當然，所有這些都符合我們自己的利益。擁有強大的內部市場，並讓歐洲聯盟更加緊密地團結而不至於崩潰，符合德國的利益。一如往常，對歐洲有利也對我們有利。

 

The recovery fund has generated an odd kind of harmony.  Is the money drawing a veil over the real problems of burgeoning nationalism and latent populism?

The recovery fund cannot solve all of Europe’s problems.  But not having it would make all our problems worse.  Europe’s economic health can influence so many things.  Very high unemployment in a country can become politically explosive and thereby increase the threat to democracy.  For Europe to survive, its economy needs to survive.

復元基金不能解決歐洲所有問題。 但是沒有它會使我們所有的問題變得更糟。 歐洲的經濟健康可以影響很多方面。一個國家的高失業率可能在引爆政治效應，從而增加對民主的威脅。經濟生存了，歐洲才能生存。

 

Might the recovery fund spark movement towards a United States of Europe?

I see this fund as a unique response to a unique situation.  If we wanted to change fundamental aspects of the way the EU budget is managed or, for instance, give it the right to raise taxes, then we would have to amend the treaties.  That would alter the static equilibrium between competence and oversight.  I am sure this will be discussed in the years ahead, but that should be done cautiously.  In the current situation, however, we could not wait for the treaties to be amended.  We have to respond quickly to the pandemic.

我認為復元基金是對特殊情況的獨特回應。如果我們想改變歐盟預算管理方式的基本方面，或例如賦予它提高稅收的權利，那麼我們就必須修改條約。那將改變能力和監督之間的靜態平衡。 我相信這將在以後的幾年中進行討論，但是應該謹慎進行。但在當前形勢下，我們迫不及待地希望對條約進行修正。我們必須對這種全球疫情做出迅速反應。

 

Do you think Nadia Calviño [Spain’s economic affairs minister] would make a good Eurogroup president?

The finance ministers are discussing that at the moment.  It is no secret that there is support for Nadia Calviño’s candidature in the German government.  But the final decision lies with the Eurogroup.  I am always pleased when women get leading political roles, and the Eurogroup has never been headed by a woman.  But it’s not my decision.  This is for the Eurogroup to decide.

 

Should Italy use what the European stability mechanism has to offer?

That is Italy’s decision to make.  We have created these instruments through the EIB [the European Investment Bank]: the ESM with its precautionary credit lines and the Sure short-time work scheme.  Anyone can make use of them.  We didn’t make them available for them to remain unused.

 

You are the last head of government left of the 1989 generation.  You experienced the eastern bloc and European unification.  Is it not the case that Europe is drifting apart in spite of the pandemic-related efforts?  Can the younger heads of government still find a common language?

Hungary’s prime minister, Viktor Orbán, was already politically active in 1989 too.  Back then, the liberal democratic order had initially triumphed over the dictatorship of socialism and communism.  But that was only part of the reality.  Conflicts broke out in the western Balkans and later in the Islamic world.  China rose to become a major economic power. 

Indeed, the example of China shows that even an undemocratic state can be economically successful, which is a major challenge for our liberal democracies.  Then came the challenge of Islamist terrorism, particularly the attack on the United States of 11 September 2001.  Add to this the disappointment that followed the Arab spring.  In short, we have not yet been able to furnish absolute proof that the liberal system is about to win the day.  That worries me.

確實，中國的例子表明：即使是不民主的國家也可以在經濟上取得成功，這對我們的自由民主國家是一個重大挑戰。然後是伊斯蘭恐怖主義的挑戰，特別是2001年9月11日對美國的襲擊。此外，阿拉伯之春後還感到失望。簡而言之，我們尚未能夠提供證明自由主義制度即將勝利的絕對證據。這使我擔心。

 

Has Europe not reaped the benefits of its revolution?

Yes and no.  On the one hand, we have enjoyed an incredible success story since 1989, but in our euphoria we failed to fully realise what long-term traces dictatorships had left in the 40 years since the second world war.  After national socialism and the second world war, many countries in eastern Europe went straight into a second period of dictatorship.  The countries of the eastern bloc had only a few years to develop their own national identities.  So only later did they undergo processes that had long been part of normal life in western countries.

Many young EU accession countries share our enthusiasm for the European Union as a work of peace on the one hand, yet display scepticism towards Europe on the other.  We need to develop understanding for that.  I see my job as working for a self-determined, liberal Europe rooted in the fundamental rights of the individual.

 

With all due respect to differences of historical experience, where do you draw the line on violating the rule of law?

We will, of course, talk about issues relating to the rule of law.  The hallmark of democracy is that any opposition must have a fair chance of returning to government.  An opposition must be guaranteed a clear set of rights – starting with appropriate speaking time in parliaments and at least the same amount of airtime from public broadcasters, and extending to an independent judiciary and adherence to democratic rules.

 

Is European legislation now in breach of national legislation – or vice versa? Doesn’t the European legal system ultimately need to have more weight than national ones as a matter of principle?

It’s not as if this topic was never talked about before the federal constitutional court issued its judgment on the European Central Bank.  Without a doubt, European law has precedence over national law – but that does not tell us where the realm of European law begins and ends.  The essence of the European Union lies in the member states transferring powers.  In the borderland between the spheres of jurisdiction of national and European law, friction can occur if the European level defines its limits more broadly than, for example, the German parliament does.  That’s what we are seeing in the ECB case.

If the constitutional court finds that a boundary has been crossed, it goes to the European court of justice and requests a review.  Up until now, all disagreements have been settled.  Now we have a conflict.  That is the nature of the beast, since a nation state will always be able to lay claim to particular powers unless all powers are transferred to the European institutions, which is surely not going to happen.

 

The presidency wanted to find a joint strategy for dealing with China.  Is that still realistic? 主席想找到一種與中國交往的共同戰略。現實嗎？

Because of the pandemic, we cannot hold the summit with China in September as planned.  But we intend to hold it later.  Its objective is to advance EU-Chinese relations.  We share common interests, such as cooperating on climate action.  We have been negotiating an investment agreement for some time but are not really moving forward on that.  We should discuss our development policies in Africa, where China is following a different path in some areas.

At the same time, the summit is forcing us to develop a joint European position vis-à-vis China.  That is no easy task.  We should develop a policy that reflects our interests and values.  After all, respect for human rights, the rule of law and our concerns about the future of Hong Kong stand between China and ourselves and are addressed openly.

由於全球疫情，我們無法按原訂計劃在9月與中國舉行高峰會議。但我們打算稍後再舉行。其目的是促進歐盟與中國的關係。我們有著共同的利益，例如在氣候行動方面進行合作。我們一直在商談一項投資協議，但並沒有真正進度。我們應討論雙方在非洲的發展政策，而中國在某些領域正在走不同的路徑。

同時，高峰會議迫使我們發展歐洲對中國的共同立場。這不是一件容易的事。我們應該制定能反映我們的利益和價值觀的政策。畢竟，在中國與我們之間，尊重人權，法治和我們對香港前途的關切，並得到公開解決。

Is China calling the western, democratic edifice of Europe into question? 中國是否在質疑歐洲的西方民主架構？

We should start by doing everything we can to make ourselves more resilient.  We need to stand together as Europeans, otherwise we will only weaken ourselves.  China has become a global player.  That makes us partners in economic cooperation and combating climate change, but also competitors with very different political systems.  Not to talk to each other would certainly be a bad idea.

我們應該盡一切可能使自己更具彈性。我們需要以歐洲人為立場團結在一起，否則我們只會削弱自己。中國已成為全球性參與者。成為經濟合作和應對氣候變化方面的合作夥伴，也是互異政治制度的競爭者。不互相對話，是個壞主意。

 

A no-deal Brexit is looming at the end of the year.  Would that be a personal defeat for you?

No.  It would, of course, be in Britain’s and all EU member states’ interests to achieve an orderly departure.  But that can only happen if it is what both sides want.  What matters is not our wishes but only the reality before us, in other words first of all what Britain wants.  With Prime Minister Boris Johnson, the British government wants to define for itself what relationship it will have with us after the country leaves.  It will then have to live with the consequences, of course, that is to say with a less closely interconnected economy.  If Britain does not want to have rules on the environment and the labour market or social standards that compare with those of the EU, our relations will be less close.  That will mean it does not want standards to go on developing along parallel lines.

We need to let go of the idea that it is for us to define what Britain should want.  That is for Britain to define – and we, the EU27, will respond appropriately.

 

The United States has also been rushing to loosen its bonds with Europe.  President Trump criticises Germany and wants to withdraw troops.  Are you impressed by that threat? 美國也一直在急於放鬆與歐洲的聯繫。川普總統批評德國，並希望撤軍。您對這種威脅印象深刻嗎？

We believe that the alliance is of great value to each of its members.  We in Germany know that we have to spend more on defence; we have achieved considerable increases in recent years, and we will continue on that path to enhance our military capabilities.  American troops in Germany help to protect not only Germany and the European part of NATO but also the interests of the United States of America.

我們認為，該聯盟對其每個成員都具有巨大價值。我們德國人知道，我們必須在國防上花更多的錢。近年來，我們取得了可觀的增長，我們將繼續沿著這一道路提高我們的軍事能力。美軍在德國不僅有助於保護德國和北約的歐洲部分，而且也有助於保護美利堅合眾國的利益。

 

Has the time come for the EU to gain strategic autonomy and actual sovereignty? 歐盟獲得戰略自主權和實際主權的時候到了嗎？

Look at the world; look at China or India.  There are compelling reasons to remain committed to a transatlantic defence community and our shared nuclear umbrella.  But of course Europe needs to carry more of the burden than during the cold war.  We grew up in the certain knowledge that the United States wanted to be a world power.  Should the US now wish to withdraw from that role of its own free will, we would have to reflect on that very deeply.

放眼世界；看看中國或印度。有迫切理由讓跨大西洋國防界和我們共同的核保護傘持續。但是，當然，與冷戰期間相比，歐洲需要承擔更多的責任（負擔）。我們在「美國想要成為世界大國」的認知中長大。若美國現在希望退出其自由意志所決定的角色，我們將不得不對此進行深刻反思。

 

In eastern Europe in particular, the threat emanating from Russia is felt very strongly.  Is Germany underestimating that threat?

We recognise misinformation campaigns; the weapons of hybrid warfare, as it is called, are part of Russia’s arsenal …

 

… even a murder, apparently …

… the murder in Berlin’s Tiergarten park is a serious incident, obviously, the blame for which is currently being ascertained in court.  At any rate, we recognise hybrid warfare, methods of destabilisation, as a Russian behaviour pattern.  On the other hand, there are good reasons to keep engaging in constructive dialogue with Russia.  In countries like Syria and Libya, countries in Europe’s immediate neighbourhood, Russia’s strategic influence is great.  I will therefore continue to strive for cooperation.